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Alex Grand: Well, welcome back to the Comic Book Historians Podcast. I’m here with the pioneer of the Extreme age of comic books, known as putting the intense storytelling and artistic impact into comic books. And it was really Rob Liefeld who I felt was the tip of the spear of this comics revolution. He had a huge impact on the audience, and the industry really just kind of chased what he was doing in any way they could. Spider-man, Clone Saga, Death of Superman all the reaction to just try to keep up with what Rob was doing. Rob is also known for upgrading the New Mutants into the powerful X-Force, and by doing that, he shattered the illusion of change that was predominant in Marvel, and also showed that generation X could also become great in their own right, and maybe even better than the generation before that. Rob, thank you so much for being here.

Rob Liefeld: Great to be here, Alex. Excited to talk to you, man. What are we going to talk about?

Alex Grand: What I want to talk about is the inner child. And I think being able to powerfully stay connected to the inner child may be in my mind and tell me if I’m wrong. A strong part of what’s manifested in your comics and Marvel legacy. What do you think about that?

Rob Liefeld: Wow, that’s a great uh. I would have to agree with it 1,000% based on the fact that I got copies of my new book that comes out Wednesday. Deadpool team up number two, and I did this on my last job as well. And I put a series of double page spreads that literally go back to back to back. And it’s an indulgence that you don’t see as much in today’s comic book. You just don’t see it in today’s comic books. That much, that much storytelling indulgence. And the the, the the guy I’m trying to please is, is basically it’s like, right before I did that, I took a whole, you know, a table of Jack Kirby powder. And I sniffed it and I inhaled it because I’m trying to replicate the kind of comics I love the most when I was a kid. Yeah. And when Jack Kirby came back to Marvel in the 70s, he was in full. He knew exactly what he was capable of. Uh, for for we can debate. And the comic book historians such as yourself have been debating forever, uh, the impact of his fourth world New Gods, forever people. And that stuff is genius to me, and in fact, probably informed more of my early career and my work than anything else I’ve done. But so what I’m doing these this morning, I’m sitting there, I’m like, this is what the kid in me would dig.

Rob Liefeld: I, I, I opened up each splash page, uh, in the multiple copies I had, and I laid them out. And I’m like, this is fun. I do fun comics. I want my comics to be fun. There’s a time to move you and to be mysterious, but especially on my way out the door with Marvel Comics. If this is going to be my last like ride, I’m going to make it as bold and fun as possible. And I understand writers who don’t want to write a lot of action and dynamics, because that doesn’t seem like they’re working their writing muscle. But that’s not what Marvel Comics like. Marvel Comics was built on. Fun and bold imagery and big, larger than life characters. So I am feeding the child in me at all times. Alex. So that is that is 1,000% at this point. And I know you have to for me, I have to throw something in there that is also clever enough to keep you following me. But I’m also telling you that if you want some badass comic book superhero action, I’m probably your best ticket at this point. And there is a there is an audience for that. Always, always there.

Alex Grand: Is, there is, there is always an audience for that. And and I think it brings back that same visceral feeling I had when I was reading your stuff, um, when it was coming out initially in real time and, you know, going back to that inner kid, you know, you, you know, on your observation podcast, uh, number one comics, pop culture podcast that’s out there, um, your, your passion is visceral. You people feel it, and and I know from you growing up, your dad, I think, was a pastor or a minister, and he I think likely it sounds like did sermons of his own. Do you feel is passion? Is that a life trait? Is that something that you kind of absorbed when you were a kid watching your dad, and now you’re bringing that out in in what you love? Is am I thinking about that correctly?

Rob Liefeld: Well you are. There’s really two people who have told that to me. You’re one and Jim Lee is the other. When in 1992, after spending a great amount of time together as we were forming Image Comics, he’s like, you’ve got that pastor thing going, man. You can tell your dad was a minister. You’ve got that you. And really, what it is, is just being the expression. It’s being able to express your passion. And I’ve seen you, you express your passion. We all are able to in some way or another. And and look, in studying comic book history, as we both have, you’re going to find guys who really do and approached comic books as their, uh, brand of literature, which is great. And I’m sure Jack Kirby would tell you he did the same thing. But there’s also a language of comic books that, when spoken a certain way, is its own thing altogether. It rises above literature and, and, and whatever we think of as comic books and, and there are many genres and there have been many authors. And certainly you wouldn’t put Neil Gaiman on a shelf near me, anywhere near me. Um, it’s interesting with Alan Moore in my workings with him, how much more of the inner kid in himself he was trying to activate, which I think he gave himself completely over to when he did work for extreme. He wanted to just have fun and do it in a clever manner. And that’s what the work that he was doing on Supreme, you know, really reflected. But yeah, I think, look, I’m able to convey my passion and if that means I’m a little more of a, a minister, uh, or a preacher about comics, I’m totally cool.

Alex Grand: I love that actual subtitle. Uh, Minister of Comics. I mean.

Rob Liefeld: I’m cool with that moniker.

Alex Grand: That’s the best mic I can I can think about. So now, as far as the inner child reading comics, you mentioned Jack Kirby. Um, we could talk about each of these people that inspired you. Each one could have its own podcast, but I want to put a number from 0 to 10 next to some names. I’m going to read off some names. Tell me. 0 to 10. You know, the potency and the power that fed inner child as a kid reading comics. So. Okay. 0 to 10. John Byrne.

Rob Liefeld: Oh ten.

Alex Grand: Ten. George Perez.

Rob Liefeld: Seven and a half. Frank Miller. Ten.

Alex Grand: Jack Kirby.

Rob Liefeld: Ten.

Alex Grand: Yeah. Okay. Steve Ditko.

Rob Liefeld: About a seven and a half.

Alex Grand: Yeah. And that’s interesting because I know Steve Ditko has some influence, but I don’t hear you talk about it as much. So that’s why I was curious as especially.

Rob Liefeld: You know, what I look right now, here’s the interesting thing is, I’ve said to people, I just happen to have a pile of these right here, this character that Deadpool is fighting. Yeah. Is Steve Ditko creation that Marvel did not know about. They were not aware. Uh, his name is Raoul Dorn. Uh, he is the Dragon Lord from. I think it’s Fantastic Four annual 16. And these villains are connected to him. This dude with the horns. Um, this entire. He and Ed Hannigan created this. And as a kid, I just loved it. But the. So the reason I don’t talk about, uh, Steve Ditko more is because I don’t love Spider-Man. I if I, if if we were only to talk about Steve Ditko, I mean, if we were only going to talk about Spider-Man and Doctor Strange, I only want to talk about Steve Ditko. But the big influences in my career, in my as and as a fan, the stuff I chased was X-Men, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Daredevil. It was very much the Avengers and X-Men family of books. And then what Frank Miller did to Daredevil, uh, and, and and so I’m always very upfront with people. I really I dig Spider-Man when he’s done right. But I love fighting with people about, um, you know, this is so funny, Alex. This came up last night at a dinner with some friends, new friends, and the husband has a comic book collecting hobby that the relationship between my wife and and this friend of hers and the guy is my age, was collecting comics.

Rob Liefeld: His dad was a military guy, so he collected comics on base and now he’s amassing his collection rebuying everything he couldn’t bring back over with him overseas because they can only take like one box. But he started talking about Romita Senior’s Spider-Man and how it got so great. And as we were walking through the door after the night is over, she, my wife Joy said, I really thought you were going to lay into him about Steve Ditko being the greatest Spider-Man artist, but but you let that go. And, uh, three years ago, right out of the pandemic, here at the local, uh, our local kind of theater performance art center, uh, they did a month of, uh, radio plays of, uh, re-enacting the the John Romita. Stan Lee. It’s where he throws his Spider-Man costume into the trash. Uh, that. It’s a kingpin story, and it’s great, but in the intermission, because the guy who was throwing it knew my friends and my friends brought me there blind, like, as a surprise. Like they thought I’d enjoy the heat that evening, which I really did. The craft that they put into the voices and the special effects was great.

Rob Liefeld: But he literally comes out and he has the Romita Senior Spider-Man, uh, artist edition, and he’s like, look, man, I got all the art from the promos and the flyers because, man, there is no better Spider-Man than this. Ever. This is. And I just kept going. That’s not true. Not that that’s not true, but so. So, look, I can do the Ditko thing all day long. And this is really, I think my. Because I don’t talk about him enough. Um, like I wanted to I’m like, if this is where I’m going to be, if this is where I’m going to get off the train at Marvel Comics, I’m going to do it with this, uh, Steve Ditko character and expose him. Uh, this is him right now. That that again. That is that is Ralph Dorn, the Dragon Lord. And and I ever since I was a kid. I’m like, I’m going to do a story with him. Yeah, but but also seven and a half is very high for me. That’s very high. I just know the full tilts are the tens. They’re the like I got, you know, it’s like, look, I’m mostly eat Reese’s peanut butter cups, but you can give me a Kit Kat. I’ll eat the Kit Kat. I just don’t assign a ten to the Kit Kat. But the Kit Kat is awesome.

Alex Grand: Okay, that is fair. That is fair. It is awesome. And then last one. 0 to 10 Fred Hembeck.

Rob Liefeld: Uh, you know, a good a good six because he was a ten for about two years of my life. Because I consumed him. I thought he I loved his humorous take on everything, and it was when he was getting his own platforms in a way that he would not before or after. So there was like a period in the comic book industry. I thought he was wonderful. And I’ve shared with people how he did an entire comic book as a junior hire. It’s it’s you have to understand, I am 12 when I’m making this comic where I’m drawing just like me and my friends, just like Fred Hembeck. So, yeah, I mean, look, there are so many incredible, you know, influences, but but the guys who hit the ten, they I probably own their original art. I have most of the I have more of their comics, more of their comics in the certain condition because that romance went the deep, the deepest, you know?

Alex Grand: Yeah. Now, when you were speaking of, you know, drawing comics as a kid, um, when you were first doing that, what were some of those initial emotions? Was it like wonder and your inner kid, just curious about world creating, character creating? Was was there some anxiety that it wasn’t good enough in the beginning? You know, how how were are those initial emotions going into when you first started to draw?

Rob Liefeld: I think you just know that you want to, uh, tell stories. And so I ironically, there was a there’s an account called The Spinner Rack, and they put the first chapter of this up today. And I mean, like, it stops me when I check. And I see this came out September 21st, 1976, because I can tell you exactly the time of day, the afternoon that I walked in with that issue, I plopped down into our sofa chair and at that moment in time, that was my favorite Avengers comics ever. And that’s probably about a year and a half into me buying The Avengers from 1974 through now, 1976, fall 74 to fall uh, 76. And it it’s when Attuma and the Atlantean hordes invade and attack the Avengers in the mansion. And there’s this giant kind of genetically bred Atlantean called Tyreke. And Tyreke is just taking everybody out. But Captain America gets up and summons you know the courage to to to be the guy that takes him down. But it’s the first part of a multi part story with a comic that was coming out called Supervillain Team Up. And the reason I’m telling you that is it unlocked. And the next chapter in this, I think it’s Avengers. It may be. 156 155 I’m not sure if I’m right on these numbers, but, uh, there’s a depiction of Prince Namor that to this day, everybody my age thinks this is the best version of Sub-Mariner. He explodes out of the ocean and attacks the Avengers. They’re on an oil rig and goes blow to blow with Wonder Man and Beast.

Rob Liefeld: So I created my own aquatic super team. Wait for it. They were called the Aquaman. Okay, I love that. Yeah, big, big, big leap for ten year old Rob Liefeld. The Aquaman. Okay, but, uh. But I had all these different characters, and I started making my own comics based on the Aquaman with huge influence of of these three issues that had the Avengers squaring off against Attuma and the Atlanteans. And, uh, I would draw those super tight and really dark pencil on eight and a half by 11 pages and I. And you know what? It’s so funny because one of my friends says that’s a that bird is considered dumb by the leader of my team was called the albatross. And, and and it was goofy, but he just he he was angel. He was basically angel with big giant wings. And my friends are like, that’s not a cool name. I’m like, that’s the name I gave him. But, um, you know, I had the Hydroman it was Alex. They were goofy, but a lot of the adventures were were undersea with bubbles and coral. Because I loved how George Perez drew people under the ocean. And I was also watching reruns of the Aquaman cartoon that came out in the 60s, that was stripped in the afternoons for me. And then, of course, Aquaman was in, uh superfriends. So I had a real thing for aquatic characters, but I wanted to tell stories. So I told about a ten page story, and and then I would go to my dad’s office where he had a copy machine, and I would get copies, and I’d distribute them to my friends, um, like my own little mini Aquaman comics.

Rob Liefeld: I did the lettering, the logos, all that stuff. And I think in that way I’m not alone because, you know, you look at somebody who is as completely in a different kind of artistic realm than I am as a as a painter, as an illustrator. But like 20 years ago when Alex Ross did his art of book and he showed that he was redrawing George Perez pages, uh, of the Legion in the, in the, in the same way that I did or I look at Todd McFarlane’s art of book, we were all trying to recreate the Frank Miller, the John Byrne and the George Perez of all, all of the kids my age from that era. So, you know, it’s just it comes from a place and they all did storytelling. You just want to tell your own stories because I think it’s it’s such a telling. Comics, to this day is such a simple indulgence. If you want to do it. I don’t mean the craft is easy to obtain, but if you want to grab a piece of paper and start telling your own stories, there’s the paper, there’s the pencil. Go. You don’t need a sound crew. You don’t need lights. You know you don’t need an internet connection. You can just go and. And that base instinct is what I felt back when I was nine years old, and it never got away from me.

Alex Grand: Now, when you were getting older and honing that, and you got some of your first stuff put into the megaton comics and really kind of starting to, like, come into your own a bit more. How was that experience? Where was your inner child meter at, you know, while you’re doing the megaton stuff? And how was that excitement and how was that experience working with them?

Rob Liefeld: Uh, so I graduated in June of 1985. I turned 18th October 1985. I graduated when I was 17. I was a very looking back, had no idea what a young graduate. I was just thankful that I was put forward in kindergarten when I was so I could track and be in the grades and know the people that I knew. But everyone else was turning 19 that fall and I was turning 18 after after high school, my senior year, my art, you know, that one hour a day of of my sixth period, I was seniors could kind of make their own curriculum. And so I worked out with my teacher that I was going to do a bunch of sequential art. And of course, I was told, you know, there’s no money in that. Why are you wasting your time? That’s a kid’s indulgence. Do you even know what you’re doing? And I’m, like, blocking out dumb art teacher who is, you know, himself a first year guy. Um, all the art teachers that I ever had really discouraged until, you know, some of them in the 90s became comic book specialists, which I is a completely different story. But you’re like, wait, you were telling me not to do comics, but you saw there was money in teaching comic book art classes, so now you’re. But yeah. So right out of high school, I started doing samples, but I was doing them my, my, my senior year.

Rob Liefeld: And I continued on that path and I mailed out samples. The other day, I pulled out, uh, there’s an entire dark horse story that they hired me to do, which is a werewolf take on little Red Riding Hood. I think it’s a six page story, and the writer’s name is on the tip of my tongue, And I fully penciled it. I could print it today. It’s print worthy. Uh, it’s of the same quality of the stuff that I got, you know, hired to do, but, uh, megaton. So Dark Horse had hired me to do that short story, and I did it. She comes across a naked man in the middle of the little Red Riding Hood, in the middle of the road, and then that naked man, you know, he’s hiding in the behind the rocks and, you know, positioning himself to to hide his nakedness. So it’s not completely creepy, but eventually he emerges as a werewolf. And so this was this take on this story. But then megaton contacted me and Malibu Comics contacted me, and I just drew what I was given in terms of stories. Megaton gave me an, uh, a megaton story. Uh, that was, I think, a 12 page story. I don’t know what issue it ran in, uh, with a character named Ultragirl, and I just went crazy.

Rob Liefeld: I’m like, I’m in. I’m in a, you know, do this to the best of my ability and hopefully find more work. And and at that point, the more work you do, the more work you know, the more the more storytelling you do, the more kinks you’re going to work out, the more doors are open. But the kid in me was like, I’m going to do this. This is going to happen. My parents had fallen on really hard times financially. My dad really never recovered from multiple, uh, surgeries, brain tumors. Cancer really devastated us. My parents made some decisions with their finances that weren’t the brightest. And I knew, like, I had to, uh, I had to provide. Probably not just for myself, but start really thinking about providing for them. So I was working all sorts of side jobs. I’ve. I’ve talked about this. Uh, I was a busboy. I worked construction six days a week, and then I delivered pizzas for my buddy’s pizza place. And in my, you know, in my spare time, I was doing comics. And then as I got more of these stories, I would quit one of the jobs and instead of having three, I’d have two. And then I have one. And then there were enough checks coming in that I could just make comic books. My living. And Alex, at that point, you’re just you can’t believe you’re walking into the bank, you know, in 1986, 87 and cashing checks for comic books.

Rob Liefeld: And, you know, everybody else in my family is like, can you believe it? Robbie is making money drawing comics. It’s funny, you know, I my dad was always hugely supportive. Just go get him, Rob. Go after it. Uh, my first encounter with comic books was when he had shared, I don’t talk about it much because they were really beat to hell. Uh, early Captain America comics. I mean, they were in terrible condition. He had brought them with him out here from Southern California to Southern California, from Michigan, where he was a kid. But my dad understood. He understood the connection. My mom did not. I think the rest of my family thought, again, it’s I’ve talked about it, especially in the the time that I grew up reading comics, it was definitely seen. You were seen as partaking in a childish indulgence and you were probably not very mature. Maybe you. Perhaps you were stunted. It’s nowhere near when my boys leave the house with their Fantastic Four shirts and their, you know, Green Lantern logos. Like, now comics is just cool. And I know what that was like. It was a little bit of a you kind of hid your interest, especially if you wanted to date girls.

Alex Grand: Before I go to the next question, I want to slide in you and your entry into the mainstream. You know, the Levi’s commercial? Yeah. Dennis Miller show, all that stuff. You brought comics more to like non comic book mainstream people and made it cool. Yeah. You helped make comics cool. So that’s that’s something I just want to kind of throw out there. And that’s from a historical perspective that comic book historian approved.

Rob Liefeld: Yeah, I, I’m going to tell you just real quick the reason I made that call to Levi’s, people ask me all the time, and I had the first wave of Button your Fly commercials were playing all the time on MTV, and I said, man, if I could get comic books on TV via representing, like I was thinking of the industry and the hobby at large, not for how it would affect me personally like that. It was just like, man, we’ve got to get comic books represented. And uh, that so so I, I’m just obviously thrilled it worked out the way it did. But you do when you’re in it and you and you see the work that’s being done by these incredible masters, you just hope the entire industry is, is turned on to it. And we needed help. We definitely needed signal boosts.

Alex Grand: With the experience from megaton, you entered DC and getting experience with Hawk and Dove. Yeah. How was that experience? Did you enjoy that? You know, where was the inner child meter at, let’s say, compared to some of the later stuff you ended up doing? And, uh, tell us about that DC experience, Alex, I.

Rob Liefeld: Can tell you from experience and I’ve tried to tell my, my, my, my one, my son who’s had some great success early on out the gate as an actor booking some roles, but I’ve tried to come to him and said, hey buddy. There were times I was waiting on a script, waiting on a plot, and there was no work coming in, and I just had to keep my spirits high and I had to keep, you know, just honing my craft because. Right. I got a few short stories at DC comics and, uh, and they were not like nothing was emerging for me. But the summer of 1987, I met the Keisel’s, uh, Barber and Randall, who were, uh, Barbara and Carl, who were married at the time. I was a big fan of Carl’s, uh, inking. He had been inking like the dedicated John Byrne inker at DC comics, and he had done a lot of stuff over Perez. So he was on everybody’s radar. He’s he’s fantastic. They said they had a two page proposal for Hawk and Dove. Well, I loved every iteration of the Teen Titans ever the 70s iteration that didn’t. The late 70s iteration that didn’t get off the ground. I bought every issue. I always believed that these characters could be bigger and more effective than they were in the marketplace. And Hawk and Dove had had had had appeared in those comics. They had just barely appeared in the Titans books. Uh, and and but I was very familiar with Hawk and Dove, and I had the Steve Ditko issues, and I had the Gil Kane issues, so.

Rob Liefeld: So I’m like, let’s go. And as, as a weird kind of I had learned what after Frank Miller’s Daredevil is when I got the back issues, upon learning that Steve Ditko and Gil Kane had done Hawk and Dove as a fan before I was a pro, I grabbed those in the back issue bin. They were affordable, and I and I saw how much, especially the Gil Kane issues. Um, that there is a there are a lot of influences. The shots, the rooftops, the pursuit across rooftops that those Gil Kane, Hawk and Doves had on Frank Miller’s Daredevil. So I’m like, I’m learning. Wow. Gil Kane is a huge influence, you know, and you’re starting to put together pieces of fan and seeing who influenced the guys that you idolize. But that two page treatment that the keystones gave me was awesome. I was like, I need to be a part of this. I remember on the floor of the show, having stepped away to read their treatment, said, please, do you have an artist? No. We’re waiting to be assigned an artist, but we will throw your name in in the mix. They were totally supportive, totally just as supportive as you could possibly, um, you know, hope, but the editor just didn’t think I was ready, had seven other people in mind, and two of those people were my friends who had just broken in as well. And so I would just call and, hey, did you take. No, I’m turning that down. Okay. Boom. Scratch that guy off the list. I’d be like, how many? They’re like, there’s four more people they’re out to.

Rob Liefeld: It’s from 7 to 4. And and I. It’s with great joy that I tell people when you’re getting picked for teams baseball, basketball in for Hawk and Dove, I was the guy the last guy picked. And you’re like, you picked the right guy because I’m a totally land this plane for you. Nobody else was going to have anywhere near the passion. The diesels knew this. I had really strong opinions on how dove should be portrayed, and it was weird. I got a lot of pushback. They basically not. They. The editor wanted dove to basically be just the dove costume from the original with breasts. And I’m like, we are leaving a whole lot of of available like visual, a longer shawl hair. I finally just won by getting the ponytail. Alex. But that my fights with the editor were greater than any fights that I had, because I didn’t have any fights with Barbara and Carl. It was smooth sailing. I like the work that we were doing. I thought Carl and I clicked the best. Issue two. I was like, oh my gosh. Issue one you’re feeling yourself out. But he was learning, I think, my pencils more and I was doing full pencils and I, I loved I love Hawk and Dove. One, two, three, four and five is completely compromised, uh, because I drew 12 of it sideways, 12 pages sideways. And that’s now now, now, here’s the deal. As as maybe your listeners know, by the time you get the comic, like like the comic like like Deadpool, Deadpool team up to I.

Rob Liefeld: This is in your hands. On September 25th, I drew this June 11th. I wrapped that book up in June. I’m about to start on issue five of Deadpool Team-Up. That’ll be coming out around Christmas. So issue five of Hawk and Dove in the middle of Hawk and Dove, I was called by Marvel. They said, we really love what you’re doing on this book, and we would love to have you come work over with us in the X office. I thought I was being pranked and punked. I hung up the phone. I said, give me your number. I want to make sure this is from Marvel. And I called back and they’re like, do you believe now? And I’m like, yeah. So when my editor raged on me for drawing those pages sideways and for your listeners Post-Crisis, DC was supposed to be about continuity, continuity, continuity. The chaos realm had been depicted by my friend Eric Larson in Doom Patrol just a few months earlier. He turned the whole book sideways when the Doom Patrol went to the Chaos realm. We are going to the Chaos Realm. I turned it sideways, thought, what a kick. My editor was gone during that period. He was on the set of the late 1980s Superboy show that was shooting in Florida, and he left everything with his assistant, who I got along with. Great. But by the time he returns, I’m done. I’m now drawing an issue of X factor for Marvel, and I will tell you, I’ve talked about it on my podcast, but there he would not be allowed to treat people the way he treated people.

Rob Liefeld: H.r. uh, he wouldn’t, he would. He would either be have been seriously rebuffed, written up, removed. I found him to be a very abusive guy. Uh, the way that he spoke to me, screamed at me, yelled full throated, uh, over the phone, and and would draw these ridiculous conclusions. And so I’m finished with Hawk and Dove. I’ve never been told once that I’m doing a good job. It’s the editor is always kind of not happy with what I’m doing. I think issue four has the letters page and every letter is like, really digging my work. You’re like, what’s going on here? I said, why didn’t you tell me? People like this? He goes, you’d have gotten a big head. I didn’t want I needed you to keep working. You didn’t need to get a big head. I’m like, okay, I understand that point of view as well. But it was just nice to know that people were liking it. And so then he tells me, you’re going to redraw the sideways stuff. I said, no, the hell I’m not. I stand by that work. It’s great. It works. The storytelling is meant to go sideways. Uh, to this day, Karl Kesel has said that he regrets going along with the fact that he cut it up and reassembled it. Uh, and what you got was not the sideways pages, but he. When I told him about the continuity issues, I don’t give a fuck what they’re doing in Doom Patrol. That that stuff is awful.

Alex Grand: Wow. Okay.

Rob Liefeld: We don’t do that. We don’t do that here. I would have never. I don’t give a shit what they’re doing over there. And I’m like, I’m just trying to make it all consistent. Man like Hawk and Dove was a great experience for me and even the way it ended I don’t have resentment over. I laugh about because Alex, I was already working in the X-Men. I went from Hawk and Dove to the Ex-office. I had a career trajectory that I only dreamed of, and I loved my editor in the ex-office, Bob Harras. Uh, he he I mean, they were throwing me covers, annuals. They’re like, we’re going to find something for you to do, but we just want to make sure that you’re. And in this office. And at the same time, I got offered Doctor Strange. I got offered to be the artist of spectacular Spider-Man. My. You know, I really got to experience, like, what it’s like to have, like, all these offers. And then I go back to prior to Hawk and Dove begging to get short stories assigned to me from DC. And you know what happened, Alex. And it happens in the business. There were editors that had their clicks that they like to work with, and they would feed as much work to those people.

Rob Liefeld: And if those people needed work, they got the work first. And, you know, you could. I was I was doing sample pages. I was already in the industry getting paid to make comics by Marvel and DC because I had done, uh, a bunch of Marvel Universe handbook entries. But DC got me stories for some short stories. But while they’re waiting for me to do something, I mean, in in the summer of 87, if I don’t hustle and get myself considered for Hawk and Dove, I don’t know what’s happening next. No one was really at that point looking out for me, and I had really thrown in with DC as far as knowing the people there, but but you, I at the time I knew it, there were certain guys who wanted to give their friends names and I’m not going to name names, but it there were definite dudes who wanted to feed their their friend’s work first and foremost. And then I’ve also encountered there’s a guy I encountered who just about ten years into my, my, my career said, I don’t break talent, ever. I don’t break new talent. That’s not what I do. I leave that to the people who are interested in breaking talent.

Rob Liefeld: So, look, I’m glad I got the job. I was the last one picked. Uh, you know, I watched as some talented guys turned it down. I mean, it was funny, the people who turned it down, like I wouldn’t be caught dead doing Hawk and dove, and I’m like, you’re missing out this story. Like what? Their two page thesis for their mini series. It was all there. I knew exactly where we could go visually, what we could do. And the great thing is, as my editor is yelling at me to literally when I said, hey, I’m not going to change these, I’ve already been paid for them. I’m not going to compromise. He’s like, uh, we need you to do the new series. We’re spinning off Hawk and Dove as a as a regular series. That’s how successful this was. Yeah. So I’m already working for Marvel. No, don’t tell that they use us as a farm team, don’t you understand? And I’m like, that’s a winning argument. That’s not that that that like, I shouldn’t go with them because they take your talent and treat them better is not a winning argument. And so there there are my thoughts on Hawk and Dove. I hope I didn’t go too over.

Alex Grand: No, I love it. And and it really strikes that that whole editorial, you know, some editors see it, some editors don’t. And it’s really the ascendance. I see your story as the ascendance of the generation X. Yeah. Effect in comic books, because it was just boomers doing the same old thing. And and so you made it a point. And Gen X, people like me like it registered with us. And we thought we were kind of coming into our own while you were coming into your own. And it’s, uh, and it meant a lot to me just as a reader. Just, you know, that, too. Um, now I just want to say, my inner child wants to tell you that I first saw your stuff in a Spider-Man annual. That you did? Yes. With She-Hulk. Yes. And, you know, Atlantis attacks. And look, She-Hulk was sexy. Spider-man was awesome. Abomination was, like, ferocious. Like, I was, like, afraid of him and nothing like that before. Like, I was like, whoa. Like you can. You can get it. You can get hit with that imagery right in your head and you’ll never forget it. And I still don’t forget those panels. And so. And I love your new mutants obviously. But but when I first saw it, boom. Like I.

Rob Liefeld: Appreciate it. No, I that annual is nothing but great memories to me. I mean the to be fed annuals and and and you got to understand the guy that we all worshipped was Arthur Adams. And all Art Adams did during that time was annuals. So you’re like, oh, if I can get to do annuals, you know, and I grew up Perez Byrne, Michael Golden, they did annuals and they really resonated. And you, you, you know, the even though Marvel was turning their annuals into more kind of these crossover events every summer you could get a good fun story. And I had grown up so. So that Avengers Atlantis storyline I told you about in 1976 is written by Gerry Conway. And the guy who wrote my annual is Gerry Conway, and it has Atlanteans and it has underwater and it has the abomination. I mean, trust me, I was like, oh my gosh. And the editor on Spider-Man, he was really trying to recruit me to do the spectacular. He’s like, if I can get you on spectacular and Todd on Amazing, we can give the X-Men office a run for their money. And I just didn’t really. I felt like Todd was the pace horse, and it wasn’t like with the New Mutants, where I could go and build out my own neighborhood.

Rob Liefeld: Like, Todd was so the preferred, uh, flavor on Spider-Man and was just blown up that I knew, like, I could come in and I could do side stories, But you weren’t going to take you weren’t going to take the crown from Todd. He was he was the Spider-Man guy for that generation at that time by in 1989. And so that’s why I just kept Jim. I said, I love you, man. You’re such Jim, such a great guy. And I just could not, uh, give myself over to Spider-Man. And that’s the other thing. Like, I want to tell a lot of guys today. And you know what, Alex? One guy asked me for advice once, and I don’t know why he gave it to him, because he didn’t do anything. I told him. And when I give, if you ask me for advice, I’m going to give you advice that I believe will better you in every possible way. Make you have. Have you sell more comics, make more money, help your family? I feel just an obligation. If you’re going to honor me and request solicit wisdom, I will give you wisdom. And then this guy, he approaches me, he arranges to meet with me and I give it to him. And his wife is behind him, rolling her eyes, and I’m like, oh, this isn’t going well.

Rob Liefeld: And is this not in like, well, we already made a decision. And I’m like, okay, well, uh, then then I’ve said, well, I’m going to say, but sometimes you, you don’t take every job that’s offered to you because not every job is going to lead you where you want to be in your career. And I mentioned I was being offered Doctor Strange, and that was happening around the same time. And I thought, wow, I could do for Doctor Strange, which Todd, what Todd is doing to Spider-Man at the time, which is really pulling all the the Ditko stuff, pull it into the modern era. And because he’s got the great cape, uh, the Eye of Agamotto, all of the great Ditko expressions of of of the supernatural, mystic energies, mystical, you know, effects and they’re like, no, no, no, no, no, we’re not doing any of that difficult stuff. We’re turning them into like a they’re like, are you familiar with the TV show Kolchak The Night Stalker? And I’m like, yeah, we watched it as a kid when I was a kid, but that’s not Doctor Strange. Well, that’s what we’re. We’re turning you into, like, an in an occult investigator.

Alex Grand: Ghost detective.

Rob Liefeld: And I go, I don’t want anything to do with that. I want Mephisto, I want, I want nightmare, I want Baron Mordo. I, I’m like, I need, I need, you know, the Mindless Ones. I need Clea, and they’re like, no, we’re we’re we’re firmly doing this direction. And I said, no. And that editor said, listen, buddy, I don’t think you know what you’re doing here. I’m offering you work and you’re turning it down. Are we are we clear here? Because that’s going to get around that. You just turned down a series assignment. I’m like, oh my God, I get threatened by these dudes. Like. And I’m like, I’m I’m sorry that you’re offended. This is not for me that the occult stuff is a bridge too far. I want nightmare Mordo. Dormammu. I want the Ditko stuff! No! And then I’m like, well, then it’s a no for me. And the idea was that I should have just bent the knee, kissed the ring, and been like, I’ll do whatever you want, even though I have zero passion for that. And I, you know, it’s not a popular. I hear editors cringe when I talk like this because that means don’t comply. But no, it means there’s a better job for you. There’s a better assignment that you really got to follow your passion. Do you really want to get up and go to war every day? And I’m going to add on this, and it may kind of preface something where you’re going, but it’s just at the time and I’ve talked about how this speaks to the passion and how sometimes you have to be crazy to do this.

Rob Liefeld: Todd would laugh. You’re doing a team book, you and Jim Lee, you. He goes, I couldn’t run fast enough from a team book. I did that on an Infinity Inc. for DC. He goes, you gotta straighten the eyes. Draw the nose, the mouth, the lips, the facial hair. Get the hairstyles, measure the ears. He’s like, you’re you’re you’re crazy. You should have done Spider-Man. But I’m like, nope, I’m I’m I believe that I can make an impact on New Mutants and that that it is it’s a larger cast. It’s a lot more drawing, uh, especially in those those crowded, you know, when the team is together, team shots and and I go, but but I’m going to wake up every morning. And I have passion for this because I believe I can turn this around. I that that that challenge. Because like I said, I was just such an X-Men. I was an X-Men kid. The X-Men. I loved them first and foremost. And more than anything, I mean, it was just a no brainer. But yeah, Doctor strange, the occult investigator. No, thanks.

Alex Grand: Yeah, that sounds boring.

Alex Grand: Um, now the the new mutants, you know, you you took that to a whole other level. You didn’t just, you know, do the X stories, you expanded on the X stories. And what I get from some of that vibe is almost like bringing elements of the Terminator series, where people from the future are coming back, and it’s an expansion of the X-Men universe. So cable, for example. Yeah. Being the child of Madelyne Pryor and Scott Summers and almost having like a T-800, almost a fusion of mutant and Terminator, you know. Tell us about creating that character, expanding the mythos, because this isn’t, you know, Days of Future Past. This is a whole nother kind of thing you did here. So tell us about creating that character, that mythos there.

Rob Liefeld: Look, Days of Future Past is one of the if not, it’s it’s one or 2 or 3, and it’s more likely one in terms of the most impactful, most fun, most exciting interaction I had with anything as a kid. When I turned that corner and saw that comic on that shelf, because that particular day there weren’t it wasn’t spinner racks. They were on shelves in this particular market. And I saw Wolverine with the great temples and oh my gosh, what’s going on here? And I had seen the warriors, the, the, the, the gang running the whole night. You know, I Walter Hill movie The Warriors and I saw in the first three pages I’m like, Chris Claremont seen the Warriors. These guys, Wolverine’s facing with their Mohawks and their vests. They look like a futuristic gang. I mean, I love talking. You could always see Chris. I’ve told Chris would go see aliens and he’d have aliens in the book. We’d go see that. Chris was very reflective of films and the stuff that he dug. Yeah, but having that that future component to Marvel, to the X-Men specifically, was such a thrill, and I didn’t think they were tapping into it anywhere near where the fans wanted to take it. And, you know, you were getting to the place like you like you said, Gen X myself, Jim Lee was portacio.

Rob Liefeld: We loved the Claremont X-Men stories the most. That’s the stuff we dug. We basically wanted to see continuations of many of those threads and and threats that we had never experienced because Chris, to his credit, always wanted to push ahead and push ahead and without pushing ahead, you know, he doesn’t put them in an outpost in Australia where, you know, uh, Aborigine man teleports them everywhere. I mean, what a bizarre setting. But it worked, you know? Um, and he was always pushing forward, but you could tell with Jim, Jim and I and Will’s loved a certain area, and we hold the X-Men back into ideas and concepts from that point of time. And look, I could I it’s very, uh, it’s very basic. And it was very obvious to me as a young 20 something who was watching MTV 24 hours a day when I would draw MTV was on Monday morning all through just music videos. And for your listeners, that’s music videos directed by spike Lee, Dave Fincher, Michael Bay, um, a bunch of really talented guys and many I’m forgetting. But, you know, they really took making those short films, uh, seriously. So you’re getting a lot of cool visual, very and very, very condensed storytelling. Smash cut, 2.5 minute little movies. And that was influencing, I think, our generation of work as well.

Rob Liefeld: But the idea that The New Mutants. I could have if I just drew the stories that I was being given. The New Mutants is canceled as they predicted, and it doesn’t have a gear shift. I said, we got to change their costumes, and we have to give them a leader. And, you know, the the X-Men had really been bouncing between Xavier and Magneto’s visions at that time. And I said, I want to introduce a third voice. And the great aspect of cable, more than anything, especially in those early years, is the mystery around him. And so I pitched what I wanted to do, and there are Marvel Age issues. This is when people say, I bring the receipts. They say Rob Liefeld has brought his new characters and concepts to The New Mutants. It doesn’t say anybody but Rob Liefeld because I showed them in my sketchbooks the names, the powers, the the, the identities, the mysteries, although some stuff I had to keep really close because the the comic book is at every creative endeavor music, film, television, novels, comics is treacherous. You want to protect your secrets, don’t let them get out, you know, because somebody else will jump on it. Pounce on it immediately. You’ll there’ll be ten of something that you intended before you can get to it.

Rob Liefeld: If you don’t protect that secret. So, cable and all of the secrets of cable I kept under my hat. I was promised that I would write the book and that there was a transition period, um, until that time. And that probably got accelerated, even though, you know, look, I’ll tell you what my editor did, that was really difficult. He made tough calls in regards to Chris Claremont and everybody else who was working on those books at the time, because they had been there for over a decade. And it’s its hard. Look at how hard it is for coaches to bench players who clearly don’t belong. Like being with starting five or in the starting lineup anymore, you just get in today’s society. There’s press conferences and the coach is like, this quarterback is no longer our starting quarterback. And then, oh my God, the whole world blows up. And multiple sports outlets and every sports reporter and they’re all these decisions are heavy. They’re a big deal. My editor saw that he had to push towards the future and and that that that Jim Lee myself while we were the future. So he started like letting us do whatever we wanted. That created conflicts. And yet the success was in the numbers exploding. The X-Men books were already number one, not New Mutants.

Rob Liefeld: Woo! And that’s the other thing. I am so grateful I never threw any of my magazines away. The comics values monthly these month. Some of these magazines just had retail reports because just like with everything I read, the spin off New Mutants was doing fine without Lifebelt. No, it wasn’t that that like, I it’s so funny. I like there are certain things I’ll get up for in my passion and my my kid will start kicking because it’s like, no, no, no, no, no. I was literally told because Alex have told us before they offered me X factor, they didn’t offer me New Mutants. And I was like, oh, I’m not following Walt Simonson. Hell no. That’s a career killer. You never follow the legend, never follow the a guy, let somebody else do that, and maybe then be the guy that cleans that up. But, uh, I said I won’t do it, I won’t, I won’t, I won’t do that. I love the original X-Men. I think it’s great, but Walt has just had this killer run, and I will be a step down. And they’re like, well, we got the New Mutants, but we’re about to cancel it. It’s really lagging behind. And Marvel kept introducing new titles. Excalibur. Wolverine. Solo series. So New Mutants went from being the very first X-Men spinoff to now the sixth book, and it was the lowest selling, lowest performing, least engaging.

Rob Liefeld: And so they said, Rob, do whatever you want. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll we’ll greenlight all these characters. You can you can just go and basically tell the tell your stories. We’ll work it out over here. We’ll transition transition you fully in. So that I went in with that promise. And to his credit, my editor stuck with it. And here’s the deal. You know, you know who’s super happy that he made those? Um, the accounting firm at Marvel is super happy that he made those decisions. Yeah. Um, you know, I mean, I had Todd McFarlane telling me I should not expect more than a million sales on X-Force, if that. And so 5 million copies later. And I’ve got those memos. I’ve showed those on social media. The sales manager who was like, Rob, we’re going to stay with it. We’re going to we will crack because they kept turning it down. I said, I’ve transformed this book. It deserves to be its own thing now. X-force is or exterminators, whichever we were going to go with. But New mutants. This book needs an X in it. But but but Alex, it was. It was a struggle. It was a fight. But cable represented an entire new path for the book.

Alex Grand: It did.

Alex Grand: When did you connect them to Nathan Summers, the kid?

Rob Liefeld: Oh, that. That option was day one. I’m like, I, you know, there were all sorts of every character I always do. I would give three options. You want a, you want B, you want c I want I want to make sure all the ideas are something that I’ve put forth and like I’ve heard over. It took me 30 years to hear how he presented it to the other side. We’ve got this Character. His name’s, you know, my editor, I think, acted to the other parties as if I’ve been helping Rob formulate this character. And this is how we’re going to go with this. Are you okay? He’s going to do this. And then they’re like, well, we think this. No, Rob won’t do it that way. Um, he was really accommodating to young talent and and and he deserves more credit than he gets. And maybe he gets a lot of credit. But Bob Harras, you don’t get that. Summer of the Jim Lee relaunch Larry Stroman on X factor. Wilson on uncanny me on X-Force without Bob being a visionary editor.

Alex Grand: Harras. Yeah.

Rob Liefeld: And and cable clearly had a ton in the tank, a ton in the tank. All the characters I loved had tons of mystery but slow reveals and and look, X-Force number one, he’s telling you he’s a summers kid, and you got to understand, Alex, we gotta we gotta do our math here. Because sometimes people forget. Cable arrives in The New Mutants in 1990. We are launching X-Force number one in the summer of 1991, and in 13 issues, that book has become the number one X book. New mutants 100 outsold X-Men 275. And if you don’t think I have that chart right over there, I do. It was very satisfying to take from last to first, and that was on the back of all of the crazy new ideas and direction that I had introduced, and done so with such excitement, because I really believed that we we could build the X-Men beyond what they were doing, and we could build the X-Men universe out further than what was already established, which was the original. Right. You know, and then and then Chris’s X-Men. So X factor, X-Men, Excalibur had shown like, that ability to just completely go in a different way. But the X-Force one comes out, you know, basically a year and a half those characters did not exist for a year and a half before, you know, it was it’s some of the most accelerated. It is acceptance of characters. And I’m thrilled to have have generated been there to watch it happen, experience it in real time. And and it was a game changer for me. And it was a game changer for Marvel.

Alex Grand: And not only did you go trans time to expand with cable, you went trans dimensional, if I’m understanding that right with Shatterstar by making him like a mojo world. Yes, kid of Dazzler and Longshot, which like, they should have had a kid. I mean, you made that happen and I wanted.

Rob Liefeld: I wanted access to longshot, I loved longshot, I loved Art Adams, I love Mojo, I loved all of it. And, you know, even his name, uh, is an old one of the early comics I was getting in 1975 was the Inhumans. And George Perez had done the early issues of that which I really dug, and there was a villain named Shatterstar and he never left me. I called up mark Gruenwald, who was kind of the name police, and especially if you want to re, uh, repurpose an old name, which they were doing, uh, quite a bit. And I said, hey, Mark, I have this name that I want to use that was in the Inhumans in 1975. But best of my knowledge, he never reoccurred. May I have access to him? Because I think I have a better use for that name. It’s such a cool name. And he got back to me within 24 hours and said, Rob, you’re cleared.

Alex Grand: So cool.

Rob Liefeld: And you go, you know, so, so sometimes there is a lot of positioning, uh, behind the scenes. And I’ve talked about it on my podcast. I wanted Wolverine in New Mutants, almost like four issues in. But I had to wait 6 or 7 because there was a process and, and I had to wait out the process, and it was probably better that we waited. You know, I feel like everything kind of works out for its own benefit, but, you know that all of that stuff needs clearing, and you have to tell, hey, I want to, I want to I want to connect this to the summers family, and I want to, you know, and then there, look, there was when I was revealing that strife was an evil clone of cable that also came with its behind the scenes machinations.

Alex Grand: Clearances.

Rob Liefeld: And, like. Rob, are you sure? Well, I’m not, you know, but but I’m going to be honest. And I will name check these guys because it was a source of great, I guess, pride again. The kid in me as you accessing that same childish thrill that I had when both Geoff Johns and Robert Kirkman have isolated to me what New Mutants 100 meant to them, and that it blew them away in the store. They couldn’t believe it. What was going on here? Oh my gosh. And they then. And then they said. And then you weren’t done. You had that twist with Domino. And I’m like, dude, I watched a lot of soap operas.

Alex Grand: That’s so great because that’s what it felt like.

Rob Liefeld: So it is really fun to know that that it was impacting the next generation.

Alex Grand: And now something I want to ask, you know, what it was actually I think new I forgot which new mutants it was. But Cannonball was standing there next to boom boom. Yeah. And I was like, that’s a good looking couple right there. And, uh, and then I thought, man, look at that physique Cannonball has now. Uh, and so I literally did my first set of push ups after reading that issue. And it was literally because of Rob Liefeld that I did my first push up. I’m not kidding. Okay.

Rob Liefeld: I’m going to tell you, I’m so honored to hear that. I was probably just doing my first push ups around then too. Um, but the thing is, because I after high school, I had really laid off any sort of athletic indulgences whatsoever. Disciplines. But but the funny thing is, I like Cannonball, but he was he was being drawn increasingly goofy. And you know what? We all went through our goofy stage, our awkward period, and I figured, I am gonna draw him more handsome. I’m going to pin his ears back. I’m going to basically, we’re going to look back. And that was his his adolescence. But now he’s a more handsome guy. I think it served the book. Look, we go to comics to escape and we went to comics to escape. So the what we were escaping to in the 80s was to the very traditional. The business is not very traditional anymore. There are ten versions of what traditional is going to mean to anybody, but at that point you’re you’re basic leading man, you know, had this certain way that they looked and, and I just said I if I want to get this book up and running, I need to get Cannonball through his adolescence fast. So thank you for acknowledging that that you noticed that I changed him up and I had no idea. But Alex, that’s that’s really exciting.

Alex Grand: It was. And, um, and, uh, so and I still do push ups now, literally, because. Hey, so just so you know, that, um, so then, uh, now, uh, the Terminator movies, Sylvester Stallone movies, Arnold Schwarzenegger’s, uh, movies. Speaking of muscles, were those an influence on you while you’re.

Rob Liefeld: Oh, oh, oh, look. I’ll bark. Oh. Oh, um, I would go see movies every night with my buddies. All my college age buddies were going to college or starting their jobs, and from I. And look, this is this is. You know, you can’t anticipate being a dad until you’re a dad. And I understand you’ve been going through this exact same stage, and I love the stage you’re at with your kids. I see your family growing up on Facebook. Um, but when my kids, uh, my my, my my son was 16 and his birthday was the week Civil War released, and we took his entire basketball team to go to the Imax. And, you know, it was it. I just laughed, I go, I can’t believe my my son and his his birthday request is that he and his teammates all go see a comic book movie. It’s so weird. But over the years, I had discussions with my oldest, who was way more into them than than my my youngest son. And I said, look, your tastes are going to change. I said, when I was 18, 19, uh, you know, I had I had I had left kind of the PG stuff behind. I had seen Blade Runner, I had seen alien. Aliens came out when I was 18. I had not yet turned 19 yet that summer.

Rob Liefeld: Um, and so the age of Cameron, uh, Terminator prior to that, uh, the Lethal Weapon movies predator, RoboCop, that’s all like 8788. The the swell of the R-rated First Blood had more people talking my sophomore year on at high school that weekend. I had to go see it that Tuesday night. Everybody was talking about it on Monday. I hadn’t gone and seen it. The entire football team was talking about about first blood and and so that age of R-rated action, violence, humor, uh, we were my again. My generation was reflecting on the page 1,000% Jim Wills, me Silvestri we were consuming. And think of those directors Ridley Scott, James Cameron, uh, John McTiernan. Some of the best ever were just Paul Verhoeven with RoboCop. I mean, my, my I was screaming at RoboCop when me and my buddy saw the 10:00. I mean, I would see movies all the time, and there was an action movie every week back then. I mean, there’s the lesser, the Von Doms, the Steven Seagal’s. We were watching every single movie I love now, like listening to podcasts where people rewatch them and talk about them, and I’m like, so much of it is being there. But it was definitely the age of the glistened muscle action, you know, formidable leading man. And that was that had become the standard for sure.

Alex Grand: Yeah, I love that stuff too. Um, now you know Deadpool. Everyone loves Deadpool. And actually I got my son, the X-Force, uh, the Deadpool game, uh, for X on Xbox just recently I got I got one for 70 bucks, but I had one already before. Just and after playing that, you know, he was Spider-Man was his guy. Then he was Spider-Man and Deadpool. Now that he’s played the Xbox game, now Deadpool is number one. So that’s what’s happened with his evolution of preferred superhero. Tell us you know about how you created Deadpool. His humor, the whole Merc with a mouth concept. It’s genius because he can use humor to like, deconstruct genres, people, universes, everything. He’s become like this fusion, I think, culturally anyway, even though maybe a lot of people don’t know this. And maybe I’m wrong of Spider-Man, Plastic Man, Howard the Duck, Punisher kind of all in one composite character that’s like really culturally relevant. And it’s what people need. They need that. They need to be able to laugh and have guiltless laughter. So how did you create Deadpool?

Rob Liefeld: It’s so clear when I just pour it out because it’s it’s it’s it’s. Since I gave interviews on him in the 90s, part of it was the Todd on Spider-Man. Um, knowing that he could be done with a panel so quickly with a fully masked character. So I kind of, you know, if you if you were to put webbing on Deadpool’s costume, you’re going to get a costume that’s more reflective of Spider-Man than you could possibly imagine. But where there was an opening and I say this to people, and the people who are there understand it. And I know the omnibus is behind me over here. I could go grab it, but I’m not going to. But Spider-Man was very dark from the opening Kraven storyline of his own Spider-Man that he was writing and drawing to, then the Morbius vampire storyline to, um, the his Wolverine Wendigo uh, storyline was was about somebody murdering kids in the woods. Like it was pretty grisly and they were trying to, you know, make it about Wendigo. But he was very the book was dark. He and MJ’s relationship was on the rocks. The reason I’m spending so much time telling you about where Spider-Man was is it didn’t reflect the Spider-Man that I grew up with, the win win Gerry Conway. Costain was not writing Spider-Man when I was growing up and and my, my favorite stories were by Len Wein and Gerry Conway and and their stint and Marv Wolfman, who had done a stint when I was a kid.

Rob Liefeld: And again, the Spider-Man that’s kicking your ass while cracking jokes. And I felt like, this is where in my first full, you know, where I’m getting to do story and art and it’s it’s the it’s always the credits that screw people up. But if you if you are if it says story or plot, again, you are conceiving of everything involving character interaction, character interplay, uh, the direction of the story, the pacing of the story, the introduction of, of new identities. So I just figured it was time to have a guy that would also help expand cable’s backstory, given that he was a mercenary and you said he’s an amalgamation of a bunch of stuff. And yes, first and foremost was the 1970 Spider-Man that I grew up with. But as you can tell, I have a penchant for gear and knives and swords and guns. I grew up, you know, with my love of G.I. Joe and, uh, you know, there was a guy ringing me up, uh, bringing my comics over about a decade ago, and I had known him for about five years. It was his store, but he’d never gone there. And he’s like, you know, Liefeld, you know, you know what I love about Deadpool? He was like a wise ass snake eyes. I’m like.

Rob Liefeld: Bingo, you know? But wise ass refers to the Spider-Man element. I literally saw an opening. Now, Marvel was publishing other Spider-Man stories, for sure, but Todd was the pace force, and it was more me a my reflection to how Dark Todd had made made Spider-Man. There was virtually no humor in those books whatsoever.

Alex Grand: That’s cool.

Rob Liefeld: I figured I figured I figured Deadpool could be an asshole mercenary. And the most important aspect was when I asked, I want him to come from the weapon X program. May I have that clearance? And at that point, because of the success cable had had, they literally said, Rob, do whatever you want. We’ll give you the clearance you can time.

Alex Grand: That’s so great.

Rob Liefeld: I’ve shared with people over the years, again, speaking to the Schwarzenegger of it all, having become having been obsessed with Wolverine. He was my favorite character. He had the most mystery. He was the most visceral. I’ve even talked to my podcast. So I think he tapped into kids who had bad tempers. Uh, like, I liked all the bad tempered characters. I liked all of them. The thing Wolverine, Luke Cage, Prince Namor, they were my guys, more so than Captain America, who was noble and stoic. I liked the guys who had trouble with their tempers. And so but the fact that Wolverine, they had hinted at all these, you know, weapon X Department H. So I said based on when I, when I saw twins, it just all came to me how I pulled this off. Because Arnold was the junk. No, Arnold was the perfection of the program. And Danny DeVito as the scientist who had genetically engineered both of them in this action comedy, said Danny DeVito was the trash. And I’m like, Wade Wilson was the trash. They hadn’t perfected what they were doing yet, which is why he’s so really screwed up and why he’s, like, almost demented. They really messed him up. Marvel just signed off on all of it, and a great way to introduce a character is to have them come in and take everyone else down. It gets the reader’s attention. So he came in, he took cable down. He took Sam down. Boom, boom. Richter takes the whole team down. And then who takes him down with a knife to the back is Domino when he’s not looking and drops him because even though he can heal, it’s you’re going to stop his motion in that time.

Rob Liefeld: And then of course, they tie him up and they send him back to his boss, and his boss is named Tolliver. And it in Tolliver was in my little, you know, 22 year old mind was my nod to Jabba the Hutt. Uh, the function of Deadpool’s job was of a mercenary. So the most popular, most favorite mercenary that I had was Boba Fett. And he visually looked like he came from a Spider-Man family, and he was going to be a wisecracker and somebody the other day. It’s funny, I do a live stream and someone said, you know, Deadpool wasn’t funny in his first appearance. I’m like, uh, au contraire, mon frere, I have not. I have a facsimile comic right here. And I read it out loud and we got to eight jokes and closed the book, and I’m like, I think we’ve, you know, disproven that. And in his in his next appearance, which was moved up. And this is like this may be the one time cable was a very accelerated pace, but nothing like Deadpool. And I’ve talked about this and I love talking about this Marvel, said Rob. This is the most fan mail we’ve gotten on a new character in 15 years. Like you have no idea. And they’re like, you have to put him in the next issue. I said, I just mailed the next issue off. It’s the.

Alex Grand: Last issue.

Rob Liefeld: 100 is I’m not going back and redrawing any pages. And they’re like, Rob, could we do like, um, like like for X-Force number one, let’s make him one of the trading cards. Okay. Let’s give him a fact file, okay? And then they’re like, Rob, I know on your outline it says that you’re bringing him back in issue seven. Is there any way we can move him up and put him in issue two? And so not only was he in 750,000 copies of New Mutants 98, which was reaching a huge audience, he is then in X-Force number one, which reached 5 million accounts, and even if 1 million people. Bought five covers. I’ll go with that statistic. A million is a big deal. The second issue of X-Force sold 1.6 million copies. That’s what you get after you do five of the first. And as you know, the opening 12 pages is Deadpool. And we continue to mine the weapon X connection by by introducing. Because now they’ve given me a voice with the weapon X program. So I introduced Garrison Kane, who is himself now the latest product of weapon X. So I hope anyone listening watching this, you have to understand I loved Wolverine. I had given I was obsessed, I had given was given access to Wolverine’s world origin mythology lore. I wanted to, you know, pull it together. And as bad as it is portrayed in Wolverine Origins 2009, Wolverine Origins, you see, the manifestation of that Wade Wilson is is involved in the department. They want to experiment on him. In their case, they’re doing it after the fact. I warned them, what are you doing? Showing his mouth. This is this is a betrayal of the character.

Rob Liefeld: No, no, no, you don’t understand. You don’t understand. We know what we’re doing. I remember, and they told me Wolverine Origins is about launching Gambit more than anything. And I’m like, uh, okay, you like you that that may be all well and good. Also an initiative that, as we know, fell flat on its face. But, uh, Deadpool was not given the proper treatment, but he was reflecting again the tie in to the weapon X stuff that I had established in 1991. So look, Deadpool, um, what I tell people now, and I and I flip through a bunch of Deadpool comics yesterday, I, they mailed me one of the new omnibuses and I opened it up and I revisit, look, I don’t enjoy every depiction of Spider-Man. I don’t enjoy every depiction of Hulk, and I certainly do not enjoy every depiction of Deadpool. Um, there are certain writers who write him funnier than others. There are people who make him more like I call mad magazine. Like he’s he’s more kind of almost just pure parody. Uh, and then there’s kind of a balance that I favor the most. And I got to be honest, I think the movies have always maintained the balance. I’ve seen those guys. I’ve walked into the with the Deadpool writing team, and I’ve seen the issues that are more wacky of Deadpool. And I go, what do you think of those? And they go, we can’t. That’s. The audience won’t relate to that. We try. And up until Deadpool three, they really left the grounded stuff behind, but they were given a road to it via the Time Variance Authority. That was their road to what was established in Loki. Now they could access to.

 

Rob Liefeld: You know, not be as grounded. And I think it was the right move at the right time. But I think the original two Deadpool films are much more grounded and reflect that balance. He’s funny, and certainly, and I have no problem whatsoever. I enjoy saying it. I tell people if the fourth wall break is what you love about him, then Joe Kelly is your guy. I had nothing to do with that. Um, that is that is Joe’s contribution. And and you you had already mentioned Howard the Duck and Lobo and all of those fourth wall breaking characters. I loved them, too. I did one his name is Blood Wolf. I did Blood Wolf in 1992. He turned towards the camera. He broke the fourth wall, I love that. Um, if that’s the element of Deadpool that you love, then then then certainly, um, that, uh, I’m not the guy, but everything else has maintained and and and I was able to watch the fan just like overload. And I’ve always told it. It never gets old. I thought Marvel had bought me a washer or a washer and a washer and dryer. The boxes were so big that were delivered to my door and I’m like, oh, hot damn, look at this, I said to my assistant Murat. I said, Murat, I guess I’m getting rewarded. Like like, you know how they give Tom Cruise Porsches? I’m getting an appliance. Like, this is cool. And then I was like, oh, these aren’t heavy. These. These boxes aren’t heavy. They’re very light and they’re full of fan mail. And I sat there and for probably 4.5 hours, read every single piece of mail on New Mutants 98.

Alex Grand: Wow. That’s awesome.

Rob Liefeld: And I know I’ve gone long, but in the in the letters page of New Mutants 100. Because there are things that miss, I miss too. But somebody said, Rob, it’s right here. That guy who wrote a letter that got published in New Mutants 100 and the letter says, Rob, I just have to tell you, I love New Mutants 98. I love Deadpool. He’s Spider-Man with guns and swords, and that’s how I pitched him. So that, like I said, when you talk about your own son and it’s something that I can talk about, like I’ve watched the evolution with kids. Look, when we were kids, I think every most kids, they, they try it on whether it fits or not, which is the Cowboys. You know, I got my six shooters. I’m, you know nowadays with with with with the video game evolves.

Alex Grand: Yeah.

Rob Liefeld: Maybe maybe you’re a Navy Seal. Maybe you’re a, maybe you’re an Army guy. But we love the the plastic rifles, the toys, the gear, the rubber knives, the, you know, making making ourselves into men of action, as I’ll call it. And there is something to be said, and I look, Spider-Man is the platinum tier. He is the the mountain to climb. He is the top of the heap. But today’s generation, they do love their. They love their katanas. They love their pistols. They love their knives. They love their action heroes. And I think it is. Deadpool really is a bridge for people who maybe like Spider-Man. And then they pivot to Deadpool. I’ve seen it, I’ve watched it. I’ve had parents tell me.

Alex Grand: Yeah, there’s a connection

Rob Liefeld: Look, here’s cable right here, and he’s got a big giant gun on his back. He’s got a big giant gun that he’s holster. He’s got a big, giant gun. He’s. You know, I really went all in with my characters in terms of weapons because I enjoyed them. I love when my character’s not my character’s. My action heroes use them. So it’s not lost on me that I’ve had some great success utilizing that kind of that design element.

Alex Grand: Your inner child is is creating for Marvel in the x-universe they love so much as a kid. And you had mentioned that the contracts Jim Shooter helped pioneer in the early 80s made Marvel a lucrative place, which I think is awesome. Yeah, and when you were able to then bring your own childhood characters, the Youngblood characters, into image? Not necessarily why and all that, because you’ve talked about on your podcast or documentaries on it, and we all love that you did that. The inner child meter. Okay. Let’s say, what number was your inner child meter from 1 to 100 at Marvel. Then what was your inner child meter when you created Youngblood and got it published? And essentially founding Image Comics?

Rob Liefeld: Sure. So the answer if if I created a character, no matter where it is, it’s ten. Um, Alex, I took so seriously the fixer upper that was New Mutants. I knew everything depended on it. I’ve talked about this too. Let’s go to see. I do a lot of stuff with sports. And the other day before the latest Monday night game, I’m sorry, Thursday night game with Aaron Rodgers and the Jets. You know, that day all the sports stuff that I listened to talked about the competition that Aaron Rodgers felt with Eli Manning and Tom Brady. Um, when Eli when when Aaron Rodgers won his first Super Bowl, uh, Tom had hit like a ten year lull. They had gone to Super Bowls that they were no longer winning them. And that early burst that Tom Brady had, Patriots were now kind of kind of in a lull. Peyton Manning hadn’t happened yet. Aaron Rodgers comes in and then they’re like but then Peyton activated and Tom Brady started winning again. And they moved away. According to this very popular sports figure they moved away from Aaron Rodgers. There was separation. You see it in music acts. I’ll tell you, you know, whether it’s NSYNC, Backstreet Boys, New Kids on the block, Jessica Simpson, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, all hitting at the same time. Um, they feel it. Their representation feels it. Your friends feel it. You’re in a competition. Todd had Spider-Man. Jim had Wolverine.

Rob Liefeld: The best selling book. I had a girl with a giant pink bow and a guy with a leather vest. I needed to do work fast. That that patient needed a complete, you know, a head to toe. I mean, I had to I had to recreate. I had to Frankenstein that and and the excitement of turning the New Mutants around and creating the X-Force franchise, which had doubters and people who were skeptical. My friends laughed like, what are you doing? Why didn’t you take X factor? Because. And I was told, Rob, when I, I forgot to put this in, they spoke to me on a financial level. My editor said, Rob, X factor pays big royalties, pays big royalties. The money’s very little on, you know, New Mutants is selling very low. So the thrill of watching cable, Domino, Deadpool, Shatterstar, strife just blow up and transform was there’s no way that’s not a ten. But then realizing that I could take that. That was the first big risk and and launch image comics be the first image comic. Have Youngblood and watch the fans rally to that which I was not expecting. And as I have covered because trust me, nobody was certain I was the I was the guinea pig. I was the test. Jim is older than me by maybe six years. Todd seven eight. They were married, having kids. I’m the reckless single Rob Liefeld bull in a China shop and I think they’re like, let let Rob try it.

Rob Liefeld: If it works, we’ll follow. If not, We won’t miss him. He went off a cliff back to work. And, uh, Alex, I, I just was like, I’m doing it because, you know, there was a there was a page of gyms that sold in auction recently, a Batman last week at the heritage auction, and it was one of his sample pieces that he was proposing to DC, uh, because Todd had put everything on pause and said, well, maybe we don’t do this thing that Rob wants to do. Maybe we go do Batman for DC and, and, and sell many more millions of comics. And that really wasn’t that interesting to me. But Youngblood was such a expansive idea, I could peel off a couple of those characters and propose them as Teen Titans characters. Why? Because I didn’t want to get left behind myself. Well, what if they go to DC? And that was the move. Okay, so but ultimately, Paul Levitz did not see fit to satisfy anyone’s requests. Mine, Todd’s or Jim’s. And so image was back in full mode and watching those books connect. And the most important thing that I have felt in the last ten years, I did a ton of conventions. Ten years ago, from from from 2014 1516, I was doing 8 to 10 big shows a year. I pulled back, I barely do any shows now, but you.

Rob Liefeld: The people who have supported you your whole life, and they tell you how much the first two years of Image Comics meant, or that X-Force meant the cable, Deadpool, shaft, Badrock, profit, eventually whatever. And it is incredibly moving. And you’re you’re feeling it as the 20 something that created it more so than the 50 something person. I, I often say, man, if I could go back and hug that Rob Liefeld kid, he was driven almost to the point of possessed. Uh, worked nonstop hours, very little sleep. But he knew the goals that were at hand. But he also felt the competition. The competition was when you talk about my generation, we are an incredible generation from from Dale Keown, Ron Lim, Todd Jimmy, Eric Larson, Wolf Portacio and then the guys that we spawned from our studios J. Scott Campbell, Michael Turner, Dan Fraga, Murat, Steven Platt, all these people we were. That is a rare class of talent. But you couldn’t ever relax. You could never relax. You had to stay on your toes and either push the envelope, storytelling, page design, character concepts, mysteries, you know. But yeah, if I created it and you’re like, are you really giving Badrock a ten at the same time that you’re giving Deadpool a ten? Yes. I love when Deadpool Deadpool movie years are great. Deadpool movie years are awesome. They’re big celebrations. They’re super fun. He’s everywhere. But then that abates. And then maybe they never make another Deadpool movie again. Okay, so so now you’re just you’re thinking about the next thing. And right here I look at it every day. Uh, we had an Extreme Studios reunion. Uh, did a store here in Orange County. Pretty much everybody showed up. I did this cover. But on here are the signatures of all 30 of the guys that showed up that night.

Alex Grand: That’s great.

Rob Liefeld: You know, I have one copy for myself, but it’s like, this is a magic time. Extreme starting a clubhouse. Because that’s really what I started was a clubhouse of comic books and was grabbing young talent as fast as I could find them. Um, that was its own challenge in and of itself. And and about a year and a half in, you’re like, I’m managing like 60 people now. Is that what I wanted to do? I want to make comic books. You know, maybe I need to start segueing out of this. And certainly I loved all of those experiences, and I handpicked every single one of them to tell stories that I wanted to tell. But, you know, the fruits of that era. And to me, it’s a really all one era. It’s the I don’t get to do, Youngblood. I don’t get to do Extreme and Image unless Cable and Deadpool land. That’s that’s a fact. I love them all. Ten. Ten. Ten. Ten.

Alex Grand: Now, last question. And you know, you’re one of the few people who comment or who can comment on the Stan Jack thing, because you’ve actually worked with both of them. And, you know, you you, Stan asked you to be on comic book greats because he knew that his stuff would sell more if you were on that. And then also you worked with Jack on image with some stuff that got him very well paid. The whole Stan Jack debate, I mean, should it exist? And do you land on one side of this?

Alex Grand: Yes.

Alex Grand: What percent, let’s say, of the Marvel Universe of the 60s. What percent was Jack? Did he of actual creation versus Stan?

Alex Grand: So, Alex.

Rob Liefeld: Let’s put on our Cerebro helmets. I know you have one and I have one. Okay. And we. Because we love comics history. One. One thing I’m going to tell you is that the thing that shocked the crap out of me, I was actually put on a panel with Jack in 1989, and I was a little overwhelmed that the convention promoters would want me on a panel with Jack. It was me, Jack in the center, and Mike Mignola on the other side. And so the three of us at an LA comic convention, you know, spoke to a room. And really, Mike and I didn’t have much to offer. We just wanted to hear Jack. And I was mesmerized. And afterwards, you know, Roz and Jack were very kind. And that started a relationship with them. And I think only other than myself, it’s Jim Valentino. No, but I go. All those other guys had that same opportunity and it’s just it baffles me. And I’m I’m certain they regret it. But not going out to dinner with Jack, not going to Jack’s home, not spending time breaking bread with him. And because let me tell you something, you don’t know what you’re getting when you walk through that door. You are getting access to Six Flags, Disneyland, Knott’s Berry Farm, every theme park ever. Like ride Jack is just in a in a very gentle manner.

Rob Liefeld: He and Roz sweet, beautiful people and and and and to look at the work that was there, the work on the walls, the work he was doing, listening to the stories multiple times, you know, multiple visits. Um, I was always and, and will always be a Jack guy. And when I say the historians part, Steve Ditko, Wally Wood and Jack Kirby were not tight. They were not. They didn’t really share lives. They came at it from different places, and they all tell the same stories of their time at Marvel. Where I will go soft is I think Stan was enabled by his family and opportunity. And I don’t think there’s an opportunity he ever took, even in his final days, that he was like, I’m not going to squeeze everything I can out of this. But I think it was part of the business to treat the artists lesser than they were, you know, intended to be. And even now, I encounter people who try and lessen my contributions, and I won’t ever take it sitting down. They are worth fighting for. And you know, Jack, one day just got fed up. And we all saw what he did when he went to DC. And that’s I started this with you saying the same thing.

Rob Liefeld: People I see people debate it, but I’m like, boy, when you look at that fourth world stuff, first of all, what’s to debate that those characters and concepts and designs aren’t incredibly impactful? I can show you where the forever people impacted my X-Force and my Youngblood designs. I can show you where Orion and Lightyear and then get out of here. Darkside became the preeminent DC go to villain and apocalypse and all of that lore. And that comes from the genius that was in that man’s head. And I don’t believe that the books that he left were ever better after he left them. I don’t. Um, with with Steve again, I like how bold Steve got in his claims, but, you know, the shame is they all passed, and now it’s left up to other people who have opinions at best. Maybe some family ties to speak up on their behalf. Um, I’ve addressed this on my podcast many times, and my soft landing is because I cannot believe later this year we will turn on the TV again and Ryan Seacrest will be bringing us American Idol. The brand is American Idol. He is the host. He has been the nonstop host. Stan Lee was the Ryan Seacrest of Marvel Comics. He would introduce the the talent and he would host the show.

Rob Liefeld: And there’s nobody better. And when people say there was no better ambassador, he. Stan, is a great orator. He carried the message. But as far as do I do, I believe there is a bunch of blank pages. It’s Stan Lee and blank. Blank walls and blank pages without Jack and Steve and Wally and. And here’s the other thing. The guys who are really, uh, you know, they they toe the line that that Stan had more to do with it. Um, look, my wife has been with me. When we were with Stan, who I, I can say I enjoyed Stan. I enjoyed what he contributed to comics. I just don’t believe that everything contributed to him is, uh, correctly contributed to him. And I have no problem saying that. And I think the genius of Jack is. And Steve and all the guys, it’s obvious it’s in all these omnibuses. And how is it that we don’t elevate them higher given the volume of work they did? You know, um, Jack was doing three issues a month, you know, Holy crap. You know, but, uh, you know, there are people that they’ll be like, oh, Mr. Joy and I will be standing there when a fan will go, Mr. Stan, we just love all the comics that you wrote. And drew and I just go, oh, shit. And then I asked my kid.

Rob Liefeld: Hey, Luke, do people think Stan Lee drew the cut? Yes. They think he drew the comics, too. And I’m like, see? And then you go, where does that failure to communicate fall? Where in the pipeline did that get so blurred? Why did it get so blurred? And it really gets back to the enabling of the corporation that was writing the checks at the time. Okay, I’m certainly not going to pin it on current Marvel current. I’m too smart to pin it on current Marvel. I’m talking about the 60s Marvel that I didn’t exist in that empowered the 70s Marvel that that I would that I would encounter. Um, so but I think it is, uh, it’s a shame that the proper people aren’t credited. But also the biggest shame is that Steve was a recluse who wouldn’t come out and speak and make his case in the best possible way. And I will tell you the greatest. What if that Marvel could do is what if Jack Kirby had lived, you know, and didn’t die in 1994? Uh, the public would have swarmed to Jack Kirby. They would have. They would have surrounded him with love and affection. He was your favorite grandpa. And that voice.

Rob Liefeld: He talked with and and very engaging. Okay. And and I believe that had he not passed, he would be revered in a way that is 100 times that he is revered now. So, um, but but you gotta understand, people get hung up and I and I’ve encountered people who, even in the last week who really want to rag on a version of Jack they don’t like without looking at Jack’s, you know, early Captain America, 1940s work without his early 60s Fantastic Four, his mid 60s. Um, I’m not talking his age. I’m talking the years, just to be clear. And the thing is, uh, his staging, his storytelling, his pacing, uh, and his drawing and and and the the gestures, the strength of the figures when somebody who who I’ve also just absolutely glorified when I as often as I can on my podcast when John Buscema when someone who has as, as, as as incredible a mastery of the form as John Buscema says, well, I started looking at Jack two like I was just looking at Jack trying to master Jack Neal Adams, the same thing. Neal Adams is an incredible illustrator. It’d be like Jack tapped into something. He is, I believe the. So. So Jack Kirby to me is, as far as an impactful artist, more influential, uh, than Walt Disney, than Steven Spielberg. Uh, he just he he lives on his own kind of platform, but Stan was a great ambassador to comics. But there are things that are contributed to him that literally now it’s like, what do you do when the toothpaste is out of the pit? You. What are you going to you’re going to drive around every comics one day, stand in and draw that.

Rob Liefeld: What a waste of our time. Like people will come to their own. People will come to their own discovery. I don’t get vitriolic about it. And both the extremes on both sides want to get vitriolic. And I don’t really. I don’t think that serves anybody. But I believe more attention should be given to the guys, as I’ve said this before, and it’s not to take away, you know, what you want to tell me to shut up and not you, but anyone when I go to that, this is a visual medium and we buy them for pictures. Go write a great novel. Dunk on me. Go write a number one selling novel where it’s only your words on the page, and that everyone is celebrating that. Go be Stephen King, okay? Go be John Grisham at his you know, most potent in the 90s. The the comic book form that we love is built around visuals. And the guys that keep naming Wally Wood, Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby were some of the most spectacular visual artists ever. And we’re all biting them. What, like, Todd wasn’t biting Todd? I mean, wasn’t Todd wasn’t biting Steve. He tell you what? I’m trying to bring Steve’s creepiness back to Spider-Man, who had become very, almost stand up straight, just very cookie cutter superhero. Todd in Todd’s mind, he did a modern version of Ditko. You know, everything I’ve touched, I’ve tried to apply Kirby dynamics to, uh, so, so the visual components are the most important components of the comics, and I’ll always fall on the side of the visual. The guys who are representing visually getting the most, Uh, a claim. And if that, you know, miffs somebody, so be it.

Alex Grand: Yeah. Well, look, Rob, you have a positive impact on your audience onto me. You also have a positive impact on my son. Other kids who want to draw and create characters and, you know, be, you know, on behalf of all of them, uh, an entire generation and beyond, you know, thank you for everything you’ve done. Uh, in the world of comics, in the world of people, in the world of entertainment, um, it’s been it’s been a really wonderful discussion we’ve had today. Thank you so much for being here, Alex.

Rob Liefeld: I’m super excited for you. I know you got your book. Do you have two books? You have a book out? Um, just just, uh, keep at it. This was a really fun conversation, and we can circle back. Uh, I hope you were prepared for how much I talk. Uh, but but but. Yeah, let’s do this again.

Alex Grand: I’m excited.

Rob Liefeld: Thank you for having me. This this was this was a lot of fun. Thank you.

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check out our CBH documentary videos on our CBH Youtube Channel

get some historic comic book shirts, pillows, etc at CBH Merchandise

check out our CBH Podcast available on Apple Podcasts, Google PlayerFM and Stitcher.

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